1.9tdi Diesel Fuel Feed Problem 'r' Reg

[junky]

'R' reg Ford Galaxy 1.9TDi

Please can someone help!

Car wouldn't start the other morning after a cold icy night. Turns over as usual with good cranking.

Looked at the diesel fuel line to the 'injector pump' assembly and no diesel present.

Car sat on level ground and there is fuel in the tank.

 

 

What is the order of fuel delivery? Fuel tank, fuel line, filter, fuel pump - wait a minute, shouldn't there be a fuel pump between the tank and filter?? Maybe I'm just dumb here but can the injector pump really draw the fuel all the way up from the tank via the filter?? No fuel tank pump mentioned in the Haynes manual, just mention of fuel level sender unit accessed via hatch under the carpet in the back of the car!

 

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[zorgman]

nope no pump inline just the main pump pulls the fuel thru. if no fuel sounds like an air leak but would have hought the fuel in pump would fire car up.

do a check on heater plugs as looking at the pipe its hard to tell if theres fuel in it

[junky]

nope no pump inline just the main pump pulls the fuel thru. if no fuel sounds like an air leak but would have hought the fuel in pump would fire car up.

do a check on heater plugs as looking at the pipe its hard to tell if theres fuel in it

Can the fuel line to the pump be removed to check for suction from the pump when turning engine over?

[bhbobhill]

After a very cold night you say.

Could the diesel be frozen?

Taxi drivers used to add a half cup of petrol in a full tank to avoid this situation

of diesel freeze. The oil companies use additives but it depends how cold it was.

Regards

Bob Hill

[chrispb123456]

'R' reg Ford Galaxy 1.9TDi

Please can someone help!

Car wouldn't start the other morning after a cold icy night. Turns over as usual with good cranking.

Looked at the diesel fuel line to the 'injector pump' assembly and no diesel present.

Car sat on level ground and there is fuel in the tank.

 

 

What is the order of fuel delivery? Fuel tank, fuel line, filter, fuel pump - wait a minute, shouldn't there be a fuel pump between the tank and filter?? Maybe I'm just dumb here but can the injector pump really draw the fuel all the way up from the tank via the filter?? No fuel tank pump mentioned in the Haynes manual, just mention of fuel level sender unit accessed via hatch under the carpet in the back of the car!

 

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

All fuel feed lines through filter are suction on the Mk1 so any loose or cracked/split tubing will cause air to enter the system, also check the plastic T connector on top of the fuel filter for cracks or split O ring.

Both Mk1 & 2 will draw air if left running facing downhill with less than a quarter of a tank of fuel, this has happened to me several times as I have a steep drive fortunately the Mk2 has the in tank pump so I just level the car and away it goes after a few turns of the key, the Mk1 will need a longer period of cranking as Zorgman rightly says the injection pump draws the fuel from the tank.

As a point of interest the low fuel level/slope syndrome can also cause flame out errors on the booster heater if the heater was actually running when the low fuel state occurred.

[junky]

After a very cold night you say.

Could the diesel be frozen?

Taxi drivers used to add a half cup of petrol in a full tank to avoid this situation

of diesel freeze. The oil companies use additives but it depends how cold it was.

Regards

Bob Hill

Could well have been but its not frozen now and still now fuel supply at pump inlet side.

[junky]

nope no pump inline just the main pump pulls the fuel thru. if no fuel sounds like an air leak but would have hought the fuel in pump would fire car up.

do a check on heater plugs as looking at the pipe its hard to tell if theres fuel in it

Well, I've disconnected the fuel inlet line to the pump and theres definately no diesel present and do not feel any suction on the pump inlet i.e.turn car over whilst holding finger over pump inlet pipe.

Presumably there should be a hard suction here as it needs to draw fuel up from the tank to the filter so should feel suction on the finger. I would stick my tongue over the end but it won't reach!

Edited January 28, 2012 by junky

[junky]

'R' reg Ford Galaxy 1.9TDi

Please can someone help!

Car wouldn't start the other morning after a cold icy night. Turns over as usual with good cranking.

Looked at the diesel fuel line to the 'injector pump' assembly and no diesel present.

Car sat on level ground and there is fuel in the tank.

 

 

What is the order of fuel delivery? Fuel tank, fuel line, filter, fuel pump - wait a minute, shouldn't there be a fuel pump between the tank and filter?? Maybe I'm just dumb here but can the injector pump really draw the fuel all the way up from the tank via the filter?? No fuel tank pump mentioned in the Haynes manual, just mention of fuel level sender unit accessed via hatch under the carpet in the back of the car!

 

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

All fuel feed lines through filter are suction on the Mk1 so any loose or cracked/split tubing will cause air to enter the system, also check the plastic T connector on top of the fuel filter for cracks or split O ring.

Both Mk1 & 2 will draw air if left running facing downhill with less than a quarter of a tank of fuel, this has happened to me several times as I have a steep drive fortunately the Mk2 has the in tank pump so I just level the car and away it goes after a few turns of the key, the Mk1 will need a longer period of cranking as Zorgman rightly says the injection pump draws the fuel from the tank.

As a point of interest the low fuel level/slope syndrome can also cause flame out errors on the booster heater if the heater was actually running when the low fuel state occurred.

OK, thanks. I shall check those fuel lines and filter valve but I don't think this is the cause. I need to confirm whether the pump is in fact doing its job as far as drawing fuel up from the filter/tank. With ignition on there is a clicking coming from the relay and a distinctive click/engagement sound coming from the pump housing.

Maybe a better understanding of how the pump works would help me!

The crank turns all the time the car is running, so the pump in turn is also always turning, however does this mean fuel is always being supplied to the injectors or is there an actuator which engages / disengages depending on whether fuel is demanded from the ECU?

If the pump is pumping fuel in all the time where does the excess fuel go? return line at the injectors back to the filter via the valve.

Thanks

[seatkid]

2 things to check first.

 

1. You say you have fuel in the tank, but are you really sure? Just because the gauge is not on zero is not enough - gauges can often be wrong. Bob 3 or 4 litres into the tank to be sure. Theres many a time I've seen people stripping all sorts down just to eventually find out theres no fuel in the tank.

 

2. If the fuel filter has not been changed in the last 20,000 miles then it could be full of water - which freezes. There is a drain tap on the bottom of (most) fuel filters. You can drain the water off (provided its not frozen), in any case its a good idea to change the fuel filter if its old. Check the T piece has an O ring fitted when changing - it sometimes gets left behind in the filter.

 

You could alway improvise a fuel feed into the pump with a bit of pipe and a plastic bottle - that way you can reassure yourself the engine can start and its not the fuel cut off solenoid that is shut.

 

If the pump is pumping fuel in all the time where does the excess fuel go? return line at the injectors back to the filter via the valve.

Yes the excess fuel is pumped back to the tank/filter. It goes to the T piece on the filter - this is a thermostatic valve, depending on fuel temp it goes back to the tank or some is allowed back into the filter. A form of preheating fuel to help stop the filter icing up.

Edited January 28, 2012 by seatkid

[junky]

2 things to check first.

 

1. You say you have fuel in the tank, but are you really sure? Just because the gauge is not on zero is not enough - gauges can often be wrong. Bob 3 or 4 litres into the tank to be sure. Theres many a time I've seen people stripping all sorts down just to eventually find out theres no fuel in the tank.

 

2. If the fuel filter has not been changed in the last 20,000 miles then it could be full of water - which freezes. There is a drain tap on the bottom of (most) fuel filters. You can drain the water off (provided its not frozen), in any case its a good idea to change the fuel filter if its old. Check the T piece has an O ring fitted when changing - it sometimes gets left behind in the filter.

 

You could alway improvise a fuel feed into the pump with a bit of pipe and a plastic bottle - that way you can reassure yourself the engine can start and its not the fuel cut off solenoid that turned off.

 

Thanks, definately checked theres plenty of fuel in the tank, never trust what the missus tells me!! and checked its diesel, you never know!!! I checked her fuel receipt.

What does the fuel cut off solenoid do then if not stop fuel from the pump to the injectors? so how would it help manually feeding fuel if the solenoid is stuck shut?

Sorry but I just don't follow the logic or perhaps not understand fully how all the individual components inter-work.

Thanks

Edited January 28, 2012 by junky

[junky]

Removed the filter, 'T' piece does have an 'O' ring still in place.

Drained the filter via drain valve, smells, tastes and looks like diesel and clean, as clean as the eye can see at least.

Shall try the manual fuel feed now.

[seatkid]

What does the fuel cut off solenoid do then if not stop fuel from the pump to the injectors? so how would it help manually feeding fuel if the solenoid is stuck shut?

Sorry but I just don't follow the logic or perhaps not understand fully how all the individual components inter-work.

Thanks

 

The fuel cutoff solenoid is built into the distributor pump. It opens when the ignition is turned on and closes when turned off. This is what makes sure your engine stops when the key is removed.

 

 

Not sure where it is in this photo, I've a feeling it may be that black/white lead goes in the middle. Perhaps you can check you have 12 volts here when ignition is turned on. If not it may be a fuse or relay problem.

[junky]

What does the fuel cut off solenoid do then if not stop fuel from the pump to the injectors? so how would it help manually feeding fuel if the solenoid is stuck shut?

Sorry but I just don't follow the logic or perhaps not understand fully how all the individual components inter-work.

Thanks

 

The fuel cutoff solenoid is built into the distributor pump. It opens when the ignition is turned on and closes when turned off. This is what makes sure your engine stops when the key is removed.

 

 

Not sure where it is in this photo, I've a feeling it may be that black/white lead goes in the middle. Perhaps you can check you have 12 volts here when ignition is turned on. If not it may be a fuse or relay problem.

Thanks, it the top black/white striped cable.

OK, so disconnected filter feed line, stuck a funnel in the end and poured in diesel so the fuel level can be seen in the fuel line clear pipe. Turned the car over and fuel is definately being drawn up into the pump, however the car still is not starting.

Slackened an injector nut and turned over the engine, no sign of any fuel coming through.

Checked voltage on the fuel stop solenoid to find its reading 10.7v with ignition on, this times out and drops to 0v after a few seconds.

With ignition on reads 10.7v, try to start and the reading drops to around 8v.

Take a reading from the plug disconnected and get a reading of around 11v.

Sounds very much like the solenoid or supply voltage is at fault here. Can the solenoid be by-passed temporarily just to prove thats the fault?

I guess I could run a cable direct from the 12v battery and attempt starting, if it starts this would eliminate the solenoid at fault leading to a short in the wiring or as suggested a faulty relay.

Thankyou.

Edited January 28, 2012 by junky

[seatkid]

Be very very careful if you run a direct feed - I dont know if this is the solenoid - I take no responsibilty - also make sure your direct feed is fused.

[junky]

Be very very careful if you run a direct feed - I dont know if this is the solenoid - I take no responsibilty - also make sure your direct feed is fused.

Yes, of course. I shall get my partner to hold it whilst I start the car.

 

If I remove the solenoid and attempt starting the car will fuel spill out from where the solenoid was located? I presume so.

 

I shall see if a 12v 300mA dc adaptor will open/close the solenoid, safer option. If I do it with the solenoid removed from the housing it will need to be grounded to the bodywork, just in the same way as testing a starter motor, in the good old days.

 

Off to remove it and see.

Edited January 28, 2012 by junky

[seatkid]

Your going too fast for me!

 

Not a good idea to remove solenoid methinks, I'd be inclined to test in situ. I think 300mA is probably not enough.

 

Similar problem/solution here!

 

Signing off for now....good luck.

Edited January 28, 2012 by seatkid

[zorgman]

right then check batt volts and compare to solenoid shut off. shouldnt be far away from each other.

volts there on switch on goes off in 5 secs then only comes back when cranking.

when turning ignon check door led does it go off or flash

disconnect the cut off feed and apply battery feed direct to it with the external fuel feed you made see if it starts iff so reconnect the fuel lines up and try cranking again to see if she starts

[junky]

Your going too fast for me!

 

Not a good idea to remove solenoid methinks, I'd be inclined to test in situ. I think 300mA is probably not enough.

 

Similar problem/solution here!

 

Signing off for now....good luck.

Solenoid removed and works with a 12v dc 800mA mains adaptor. With power the 'piston' pulls in, without power the 'piston' pops back out by the spring pressure.

When I removed the solenoid it left behind (in the pump housing) the spring and the 'piston' with the 'O' ring, is this correct? Took quite a tug to remove it!

Is it possible it was 'jammed in' somehow? Shall re-connect back up to car and see if it works now!

[junky]

Your going too fast for me!

 

Not a good idea to remove solenoid methinks, I'd be inclined to test in situ. I think 300mA is probably not enough.

 

Similar problem/solution here!

 

Signing off for now....good luck.

Hope you come back to see the results.

Thanks for your help, have a grrrrreaaaaaat weekend!!!

[junky]

right then check batt volts and compare to solenoid shut off. shouldnt be far away from each other.

volts there on switch on goes off in 5 secs then only comes back when cranking.

when turning ignon check door led does it go off or flash

disconnect the cut off feed and apply battery feed direct to it with the external fuel feed you made see if it starts iff so reconnect the fuel lines up and try cranking again to see if she starts

Thanks, but before I proceed I need a cuppa and warm up a little, the chill is starting to set in the old bones.

 

Meanwhile, could you elaborate more on the door led please.

There is a red led, where you would find the door lock on an old car back in the day! Just thought it was something to do with alarm/immobiliser.

Is this an ECU fault code led?

In any case, it comes on red and stays solid red, I think, shall check and confirm.

Edited January 28, 2012 by junky

[junky]

right then check batt volts and compare to solenoid shut off. shouldnt be far away from each other.

volts there on switch on goes off in 5 secs then only comes back when cranking.

when turning ignon check door led does it go off or flash

disconnect the cut off feed and apply battery feed direct to it with the external fuel feed you made see if it starts iff so reconnect the fuel lines up and try cranking again to see if she starts

Re-connected solenoid, still not starting and no fuel to the injectors, perhaps I should remove the plunger and spring from the solenoid to see if fuel is fed to the injectors, this would at least eliminate the solenoid and supply volts/circuit, would it not?

 

Battery volts across pos and neg terminals reads 11.75v with ignition off.

Ign on and connected across battery neg and solenoid reads 10.5v, when turning over the engine the volts drops down to 8v ish, its a bit erradic.

 

The door led comes on with key in ign and turned to the glow plug pre-heat position, as soon as the glow plug pre-heat light goes out the door led goes out too!

 

Thanks

[zorgman]

right then. your bat volts are too low so charge bat up or get a good battery jumped to it, (is there a buzzing noise from dash when cranking).

correct on the door led its a status light nd should go off in 3 secs or something.

have you tried a direct supply to cut off solenoid yet (take off the wire first so no backfeed to ecu and dont worry about fuse in the line etc just a chunk of wire. old days i used welding rod or whatever was to hand)

try above see how it goes but dont remove cut off solenoid (cos) as fuel will go all over.

no joy on above take the plunger and spring out put cos back in and try again.

tis cold out there thats y im sitting in house

[junky]

right then. your bat volts are too low so charge bat up or get a good battery jumped to it, (is there a buzzing noise from dash when cranking).

correct on the door led its a status light nd should go off in 3 secs or something.

have you tried a direct supply to cut off solenoid yet (take off the wire first so no backfeed to ecu and dont worry about fuse in the line etc just a chunk of wire. old days i used welding rod or whatever was to hand)

try above see how it goes but dont remove cut off solenoid (cos) as fuel will go all over.

no joy on above take the plunger and spring out put cos back in and try again.

tis cold out there thats y im sitting in house

Shall give the battery a charge, no buzzing noise from dash when cranking, I don't think, shall see tomorrow and let you know.

Door red led does go out after about 3 secs, so thats good news!

Yeah, after removing cos I can see fuel will go everywhere so won't do that but shall remove spring and plunger after jumping direct from battery.

 

Cheers, shall get back to you tomorrow after trying that out, your right, bloomin cold out there so it can wait plus its dark and can't see a bleedin' thing! Don't want to lose that spring or anything either so tomorrow it won't be raining, hopefully not.

[seatkid]

 

Battery volts across pos and neg terminals reads 11.75v with ignition off.

Ign on and connected across battery neg and solenoid reads 10.5v, when turning over the engine the volts drops down to 8v ish, its a bit erradic.

 

 

Its a duff/flat battery you got there and maybe thats been the problem all along. :wacko: Solenoids only work within a narrow voltage range.

 

BTW if you remove the piston/spring you'll probably find you cant turn the engine off! Make sure you dont get any dirt in there either......

Edited January 29, 2012 by seatkid

[bhbobhill]

Have you thought as 90% of all faults originate at THE ENGINE MANAGEMENT UNIT (EMU)

Diconect the battery lesve for afew minutes,

put back and try again.

Could be the security system is acting up maybe the immobilisor hah engaged.

Just an obscure thought

Bob Hill